Libertarian Thomas Massie, the Republican congressman from Kentucky, is one of the most unusual American politicians in the US today: a Republican who has openly and repeatedly butted heads with US President Donald Trump – and lived (politically) to tell the tale.
Massie recently scored a stunning victory, championing legislation to release the department of justice files on paedophile Jeffrey Epstein, which seemed unlikely to pass. But following a decision by Trump to reverse his opposition to the legislation, it gained the support of every member of the US Senate and all but one congressman.
Massie, who is charming, funny and a wildly accurate mimic of the US president, was in South Africa ironically at precisely the time the US administration was pointedly not attending the G20. Massie gave the keynote speech at this year’s 40th anniversary of Libsem, the annual meeting for libertarian-minded South Africans. Tim Cohen caught up with him after the function.
First things first – congratulations on passing what must be one of the most unusually popular bills in living memory. Has anyone ever pulled off what you just did?
I used a parliamentary procedure called a discharge petition. It’s basically a safety fuse in the House – a mechanism that lets the republic function when the speaker is blocking something. Historically the chance of success is about 1% for anyone who has ever attempted it.
At the outset, my own odds were nowhere near 1%. I was actually worried the Senate would stall it. But the momentum in the House grew so quickly that the president had to endorse the idea, or it would look like his own party was defecting against him.
Once Trump stepped in front of the parade, the Senate – famously allergic to speed – moved with unusual grace, I thought?
They passed it before it even arrived. It went through the Senate like grease through a goose.
Why did the Epstein files become the one issue that united almost every politician in Washington?
It’s not the most important issue for my voters, but it’s the one issue everyone agrees on. If you’re a billionaire, you shouldn’t get away with sex-trafficking and paedophilia. That’s just common sense.
Trump said he’d bring people inside the law who had been operating outside it for years. When his administration reversed course and decided they would not release these materials, that’s when I stepped in. I realised there was a way to force the disclosure.
Why did Trump change his position? What was he trying to protect?
I don’t think he is criminally implicated. But I do think some of his friends and donors are. There is royalty involved. There are billionaires involved. I know this because I’ve talked to the survivors who gave these names to the FBI.
He is trying to protect what I call the “Epstein class” – wealthy, well-connected individuals who for years believed they were above the law. And he’s trying to protect the intelligence agencies. What we are going to find out is that our justice system has been a colossal failure for two decades, and that’s embarrassing to these institutions.
Will there be further consequences once the department of justice files have been released?
Yes. Names will be removed from buildings. Scholarships will be renamed. Professors and CEOs will lose positions. In Britain, just that small trickle of information led them to fire their ambassador and take the title away from a prince. The US will see the same reckoning.
I’m a capitalist. I don’t begrudge anyone for getting rich by improving people’s lives. But the Epstein class is something else. They donate tens of millions of dollars politically and then try to whitewash their names through philanthropy. That class is now facing accountability.
What does this mean for you personally? Politically, this is both a victory and a provocation, surely.
Some people have tried to argue that I’m ineffective – that I’m principled but I can’t build coalitions. Well, for Pete’s sake, I just built a coalition of 427 House members, all 100 senators and the president.
But the success has also triggered retaliation?
Three billionaires – Miriam Adelson, Paul Singer and John Paulson – have already spent $2m attacking me on television, even before there was an opponent running against me. They’re upset because I’ve never voted to send a dime to Ukraine and never voted to send a dime to Israel.
So how are you doing in the polls?
Proper polling costs $30,000, so we only did one back in August or September and I was doing well. The negative ads have hit my favourability, but I’m still above water.
On the prediction markets, they have me at 72%. I think that will resolve to 100% on May 19. But I’m not giving investment advice.
This is your second trip to South Africa, but technically your honeymoon?
I booked this trip before I had a wife. To call it a honeymoon, I had to find a wife and get married. Fortunately, I succeeded in that.
South Africa’s attempts to mend relations with the US seem to have stalled. What advice would you give Pretoria?
My first piece of advice: Trump bluffs – a lot. And he uses tariffs in ways I consider unconstitutional, but he’s been able to assert those powers by declaring emergencies.
Stroke his ego. Tell him he’s great and he’ll probably retweet you.
He attacked both me and Canada on social media three times in one day. I joked that Canada might eventually fold. If he hasn’t threatened to make you a state yet of the US, then it’s not gotten as bad as it has with Canada.
Trump will be president for three more years. The US-South Africa relationship will long outlast him. Don’t get too discouraged.
How do you think the Trump administration is performing so far? Better or worse than expected?
He brought in Tulsi Gabbard and RFK Jr – both Democrats three years ago – and they’ve done great work. Some appointments, like Marco Rubio, are what you’d get under any Republican president.
[But] I’m concerned about the FBI and the department of justice. The people he appointed – like Kash Patel – were firebrands. Now they’ve become soft and seem intent on defending the institutions instead of dismantling and rebuilding them.
There are rumours of a December shake-up in the administration…
He [Trump] has almost wasted his best year. Next year Congress will be paralysed by re-election campaigns. And historically, presidents lose either the House or the Senate – or both – in the midterms. People call me Nostra-Thomas, but I’m just looking at history.
He got his big “beautiful” bill passed [which Massie, a vociferous critic of the level of US debt, voted against]. But otherwise, we’ve been governing using Joe Biden’s old budget via continuing resolutions. He could have listened more to Elon Musk and gone after waste, fraud and abuse. But one man’s fraud is another man’s indispensable government programme.
Former US president Ronald Reagan used to say: “The closest thing to immortality on earth is a temporary government programme.” So in a way, I have voted against a lot of immortality.
ALSO READ:
- Like it or not, Trump, America is at the G20
- Trump’s tariffs are headed to the US Supreme Court, prolonging the chaos on trade
- ‘No deal’ as Trump slaps 30% tariff on South Africa
Top image: Thomas Massie. Picture: Heather Diehl/Getty Images.
Sign up to Currency’s weekly newsletters to receive your own bulletin of weekday news and weekend treats. Register here.
